Curtis Dunbar: Mental State, Vision, and Tournament Pressure

Get her Dun dun dun. Gotta find my little notes. Okay. Very nice. Okay, so we are back with, like part eight of this. So we just finished up on talking about like your, your experience with those four different categories with a change in your approach to shooting. And so let's move on to the second thing, which unless you have any questions and follow up on that, no, we're good. Okay. Okay, so the next part I gave you kind of like a filter question, and then some notes underneath it. And so I'll read that. The main question was basically, his changing your mechanical and technical approach to shooting had any influence, or brought any new valuable knowledge on the mental aspect of the game for you, you can filter this question through the following topics. So actually dealing with tournament pressure, the influence of your mental state on your vision, your ability to execute certain mechanics, and your emotional perception of your external environment, and how that changes your ability to use visual or physical mechanics. Like the first half was more technical stuff, this is more mental stuff. So floors, yours, no, just

a tournament tournament pressure has changed, a lot of it goes back to what we were talking about, of being all store focused. You know, and I still pay attention to score. But now it's, I try and shoot as those score doesn't matter, but in a different way than when I'm working on things. I try and be memoryless as I go station to station and bird to bird as much as possible. And I try and stay like, what I would call, say, next bird focused. Next process focused. So that it because taking taking a miss from the stand before, just like we had talked before, like, you know, in golf, right, it's like, I can't do anything to make that up, it's gone. So I can't necessarily make a better shot to get an extra half a point, or something like that. Everybody knows this. But so what I can do is shoot clean. Right? Very rarely does anybody shoot 100% You know, most people, you know, most most good shooters, you know, 8595 You know, so there's birds to miss. And understanding that you've just you've got to really kind of focus on doing what you what you in tournaments, doing what you can do best. And leaving that other behind. So that it's like okay, yeah, so I only missed eight birds. So I'm a 92 I'm competitive, maybe at this one. Who knows, you know, depending on, you know, how the birds are set? Yeah, you know, maybe maybe I'm a player today, you know, but I'm not gonna be there. If I'm taking things from prior stands or, or anxiety from prior shots into the next shot, that's gonna work to compound. If I if I am having a stumble or I am having a problem, that's going to work to compound, whatever it is, and it's not going to solve it, it's gonna make it worse. So learning to, to approach it like that has has been, you know, a big change for me.

So just so I make sure that I'm gonna try to summarize what you said and like a sentence and tell me if I'm wrong. Basically, what you're saying is that through the change in what you've been doing, and in your mechanics and your technique, and your overall approach to the game, it's brought to you a different type of an awareness about yourself that allows you to that allows you to kind of understand the state of the difference. important components of your thoughts darting around, and which ones to pay attention to and influence and which ones not to worry about?

Yeah, yeah, very much. So, you know, that is breaking a bird, you know, and, and a respect that, you know, you go to go to a tournament, maybe maybe you shoot, who knows bigger tournaments you might shoot you know anywhere from, you know, any tournament, you know, you might shoot anywhere from four to nine events, you know, crazy one, you know that you just kind of go hog wild, you know, and understanding that some days, you're gonna be able to do it. And some days you're not. And most of the days are in between, and you're going to have to work at it, you know, you have those days where it just feels simple. And you have those days, where you feel no matter how hard you work at it, it doesn't help. But most of the days are somewhere in between, where you're gonna have to manage who you are. And you're shooting in your, in your eyes and manage everything, to get it to be where you want.

So that statement actually kind of brings me into this next little part. And I want to ask you how you manage that. But basically, the you you said, you know, manage your state and your vision and stuff like that. So talk to me a little bit about how you have learned and come to notice that with a different perspective on how the the mechanics are interconnected, your physical movement is interconnected to your emotional and visual state when you're shooting. So with this new understanding and your ability to to conceptually grasp that the interconnectedness of those three things

he's say that again,

yeah. So So basically, bringing into light, the fact that you're bringing into light because of the fact that we now understand how the physical state you are in, and the emotional state you're in, and the way in which your eyes are seeing in any given moment. And I'm not talking about detail, but you know, what I'm talking about what, yeah,

how they're working. Yeah,

those three things hugely influence your ability to execute a movement that you have planned, either it does happen, or it does not happen. And depending on the state of, of where you are in those three categories, that's going you can almost learn to predict what movement is going to happen when you call poll if you're aware of those three things. Yeah. And with you. Yeah, so my question is that talk to me a little bit about it's not really a question, I guess, but talk to me a little bit about what you've noticed to be the influence of the emotional slash mental state that you're in over the way that your eyes work, and then how you manage that.

Well, mostly, I drink I mean, in the morning sugar and lots of coffee. Eat a couple of honeybuns Yeah, and then grip it and rip it. Yeah.

Did you like four shots of pre work? Yeah, I

mean, I get out of the car. I slammed the door. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I shout as loud as I can. I'm ready to go. Yeah. Gaynor Did you know that there are days Honestly though, there are days that are that? Yeah, right in I can't Well, Ric Flair. Yeah, and I can't I can't stop myself on those days. And I don't know what that is. It happens in the morning round usually. But, yeah, that's a good question. So you know, I think about it so much deeper now. As I'm in rounds, and as I'm in stands, and you know, as I'm running my pre shot routines up to taking taking a pair as I'm preparing in the morning for a shoot and kind of working myself up to the start of the day, and in that type of thing. The emotional like the environment there's there's a lot of things that that affect it like so I've got that X the external environment, the squad that I'm with the people I'm shooting you know, the pressures that I'm under how how are busy some courses, the way that they're laid out? There's just a lot of activity. Behind you. That was one thing over at texts at ARPA that article attacks that was really really nice. The entire course. It seemed like we were gapped in the front and the back. And it just seemed like we shot on Saturday and Sunday. It just seemed like we shot the course alone. Yeah, it's a nice play. And because the way that the stands are laid out, there gapped there gapped real nicely it doesn't there's not bunch up spots, it seems like you

don't see any station from another station. Yeah. And then like the first two,

you know, and I can think of a couple other shoots that I've that I've been at, like down through this Florida swinging and some of the courses on different, you know, different courses, maybe there's a prelim or, or something like that, where it just seemed like you were on top of everybody. You guys behind you were on top of you, you are on top of the guys in front of you. There was barely even a reason to have a buggy because the stands were, you know, so close together in a couple in a couple of days. I think North prelim that the Jacqueline's was kind of like that. It was just a short course. But a lot of stations. And, you know, all of that activity, I didn't respect it. When I shot that round, at the North prelim Jacqueline's. I didn't respect how distracting that was for me. So I didn't control it very well there that I had a lot of things going on, in my head. And I was just I was very, I did not control the game that, that that room very well. And honestly, like that just the distraction of, you know, that external distraction that I was allowing. My mechanics may have been good. But you know, something in that my vision was all I was questioning. I was questioning my vision I was my vision was spooky.

I love the word that you use.

Yeah, I mean, like spooky and gas. Yeah, I mean, spooky. Spooky to me is when, like I can, I have kind of two, two ways I see a bird at both ends of the spectrum, really. And one is that bird comes off the trap, or wherever maybe it comes from behind a bush, wherever it is, I've I've positioned my eyes in the right place. My emotional state is in the right place, that all effort and energy is in the eyes. And the moment that thing comes off, out into view as an orange streak, my eyes are on it and start to clear it up. You know, they it's still an orange streak at the very beginning. But they're with it and they stay with it. And it gives me everything I need for the mechanics for the body to move. And I just fire then there's what I call spooky. And that's where my eyes aren't ready. And it's usually because either I haven't prepared my eyes. Or it's because I have distractions. Yeah, clients distract. Yeah, and I haven't gotten myself to the place that I should have called Paul. It's like I should have maybe taken another moment, settle down a little bit more, maybe I'm less than confident in my plan. That one is bad. Because if you can't get confident and you're playing, you're not going to be 100% with the eyes. That is my experience that's just not gonna happen.

The what? So this is what's really cool about that, to give people an understanding of what you're talking about from a neurological sense. You know, you mentioned the word distractions distractions are something that you have to consciously recognize. And so I'm sure we can all relate to certain days where like just the person driving behind you on the course with the golf car, like going past you, you hear it, you pay attention to it, and it annoys you, or your squad mates talking while you're shooting. And, and, or just visual noise like a bunch of movement in the back of its of course it wraps around itself and you're paying attention all these people in front of you, whatever it is, there's days like that and you just can't stop paying attention to it. And then there's other days where it's like, you know, someone could set off a bomb behind you and you wouldn't even notice Yeah, and then every person experiences let you know the left and the right side of that spectrum. That all has to do with going back to that interoceptive and extra receptive awareness. Like where your attention at that moment currently is, is it on anything, everything inside of your skin, so to speak, which sounds like a weird definition, but that's what it is your breathing, your, your, your, how you feel in your body, your attention, your thoughts is your attention on all of those things, or is your attention on things outside of you. Now, when you talk about your vision going spooky, the reason why that that happens when you have when you feel like there are a lot of distractions is because in that moment, you are more extra receptors. Yeah. And you're very much attentive in your conscious attention to things outside of you. And then here's where the neurology of the way that your eyes work comes into play, which is that, that difference between smooth pursuit vision and psychotic vision in terms of the ocular movement of your eyes, smooth pursuit, vision requires, again, conscious attention on the thing you're trying to look at. But if you are segmenting your conscious attention, by being extra receptive on the noises and distractions around you, you're partitioning, what you can pay attention to in terms of how much of the percentage of your attention consciously you can connect to seeing the target. So therefore, what happens is, you don't fully engage in smooth pursuit vision, and you get micro psychotic movement in the ocular muscle of your eyes. And that's why the birds don't look as smooth or as slow or as detailed. And so a quick way to get around that is if you experience that and around immediately, you can shut it off by doing this, or you can say like, I'm going to pay attention to my breathing. And I want to feel the air come in my nose and fill up my lungs. And then I want to roll, I want to decompress that breath in. And I want to exhale out. And as you're doing that pay attention to what your body feels feel the feel your lungs filling up, feel the tension decompressing as you release the air, and then and just literally, by conscious choice, change your attention from something outside of you to something inside of you and keep it on that and it will help you not only remove the distractions, but also get rid of the spookiness

of your eyes. So simply put spooky intense. Don't be spooky, intense. Yeah, spooky. Intense is bad. Yeah. So and that's what happens like. So a lot of times when I feel that what I call my eyes being spooky in the sense that like they just won't completely settled down. And when I call for a bird, it's apt to streaked through my eyes and eyes not go with it immediately. And they get a little beat for where I've placed them. Normally, you know, that's a good place to place my eyes. But if I'm like that, and if you are, if you stay externally focused. What will happen? Usually, at least to me, is my eyes don't get better, I get tense. So I try and knuckle down a little bit, which actually expounds the problem. Yeah, because not not just are my eyes spooky in the sense that they're going to get beat, my go time for my mechanical move of the body is going to lag because I'm tense. And anytime that you're tense, you have to come out of tension to move fluid in it in a direction. And so that's where I think you you expand this. So you experience maybe your eyes being spooky on one on on one pair, and then you go to the next pair, and you haven't solved your eyes haven't gotten rid of the external influences and put those on the shelf. And now to instead of doing that, you get tense and your knuckle down. So now that's then that next shot is actually worse than the one you experienced the original problem. And there's a good chance that at that you go to the next shot after that. So it's three Bert, a three pair station, you go to that following one. And you've actually expounded it even more, right, you've taken it because you think you're solving it. And it's I mean, that's a hard one. You got to stop that you got to be able to recognize that. I mean, if people think about it, and think about times, they're like, Oh man, I'm actually I'm trying to solve the problem by ramping up. Yeah. And you in ramping up is probably not what you need. 100% of the time. It's not Yeah, Yeah, you know what, what you need is to calm down and start and get back to the place where you're allowing your eyes to work and allowing your vision to do what? What, you know, crazy, you know, crazy things that it is able to do if you don't get in the way of it. Yeah. And because that's what that's what a lot of that is, is, you know, you know, that mental state that you that you asked about in the original question is, how is your mental state going to get in the way of you performing what it is you do know how to do? And your subconscious knows how to do the you know, and you set up a nice program on an process of how to do it. But now you're, you're in there stepping on it? Yeah, right. You're in there. You know, you know, the only thing that really bothered me that it didn't it didn't really bother me, I managed it at the the ArkLaTex ArkLaTex. was I'm not gonna go there was, you know, Dawson love? Yeah, but you're excitable. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes I'll be in the stand. And you'll, you'll just be jabbering away just excited. And I, I'm with you, I'm excited, too. But I have to be able to be like, I don't need to pay attention to that. Don't worry about it. Right, I have to be able to manage that as as a shooter, because that wasn't even, you know, I, you know, I liked us. And I like, you know, I like I like the group that we were with, this isn't some random dude. Driving in, you know, the Kubota N Oh, yeah. And oversized, side by side with a cab on it, that he just can't stand now to have air conditioning, and drives right up five feet from the stand and opens his door closes it and this step steps right up beside the stand. That's, it's not that, you know, and that's really, you got to be able to manage that, to course, that guy's gonna get something said to him. But you know,

I want to interject really quick there. And just to make something clear, like for it, because I know, that's a big thing that I get in so many video calls that people talk about, like I just can't, I couldn't manage distractions and things. And all of the advice that I have heard online is not good advice, because though,

they'll just ignore it. Yeah, well

ignore it or just, you know, wait until you can move past it. And then you know, keep focusing on you know, the bird or the, the only way scientifically to get to do that quickly and efficiently. With good success. To get rid of that distraction is you have to understand those two different spectrum spectrums of interception and extra perception. And being consciously aware of something as a distraction is extra perception, extra receptive awareness. You can't you can't refocus your attention to something other. Some other extra receptive thing you can't go from, I'm hearing that noise in the background, let me focus on the target doesn't work. You have to, you have to move to the other spectrum. So you have if you're, is you stayed out, you've stayed outside yourself. Yeah. And if you stay outside yourself, it's it doesn't work. Yeah, you have to go from outside to inside. So you literally will have to do something. interoceptive Lee, internally is another word but internally is not the same as interoceptive. Those of you that are listening to this, you literally look these words up actually, I'm gonna do it right now. Just because I can. So a

lot of times in that same regard. What I'll, what I'll do is, I'll take deep breaths, I usually can't, I might close my eyes. And, you know, kind of rock a little bit feeling feeling the move I want to make and feeling inside me how that you know, what it's gonna feel like to move with the bird and kind of turn it in? Yes. To get that and it also helps if you turn around and give a dirty look. Yes, that usually helps me because I feel better than and so yeah, I think um, you know, the emotional environment is huge. If I don't, you know, like just starting with today if I don't if I don't show up with you know, if I don't show up with like, I want to do well or I want to run the process a want to find enjoyment in, in setting up a shot in having it go, right. If I don't have those kinds of once in a day, emotionally, I won't run, I won't run the processes. And I won't, and I will be very, like, externally focused and aware of everything. Yes. You know, we, you know, when, when those things in I'm not saying that I'm focused on those things, it's just that on those days, those things are important to me. Yeah, like they're on those days, I enjoy figuring out where I want to break birds, I enjoy figuring out how fluid is going to feel for me, I enjoy the challenge of setting, setting things up like that. And if you are, if you are, depending on what type of person you are that day, or in that standard, whatever, you may have to throttle up throttle down your engagement, you're with yourself and with the burden with, you know, sometimes if you if those external things aren't really distracting you at all, if there can be a fare going on in the background. You know, you it's no problem. Yeah, you know, and other times, it seems there's barely anything going on in the background. That seems like there's a fair, you know, I mean, it's like you step up. Like for me, if I step up to make a break. It's like, sometimes I can shoot, make or break. Like, I'm standing up there alone. On a day, there's no one at the club. And sometimes, I shoot make or break, and I'm standing I'm literally feel like I'm standing in the middle of a fair. Yeah. You know, and I struggle, you know, and I tend to kind of join in on the fairing and not take it seriously enough, because I just can't stay. Stay focused on that. You know,

we were watching the psca videos last night and think about the fare going on there with the mic and the in the rotation. The shot.

Yeah, I mean, he's, he's talking in the middle of the shots. With, with with Spanish speakers everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in some cases, in some ways that could very well be, you know, for me easier, you know, coming from like, you know, my my background of playing hockey and lacrosse and racing downhill mountain bikes and stuff. Where, you know, when I was on the ice or or on the field, playing lacrosse or, or, or roller hockey or something like that. I honestly, I there could be no one in the stance there. You know, it could be championship game eight. You don't I never? i You don't know. Yeah. Unless there's, you know, a penalty and whistle blows or something like that. I can't, I can't hear any or I can't hear shouting. I can't hear. You know, playing playing hockey. I can't hear people pounding on the glass. When I'm checking somebody. Yeah, I there could be some little kid back behind the glass just pounding on it. And I would not know. Yes. You know, if it was me being checked, or if I was checking somebody. And you know, same thing with with downhill mountain biking, you were very disturbed. People are standing alongside of the course of yo bells. Yeah, with cow bells, ringing them, you know, and shouting and blowing and blowing horns. Well, actually, on certain parts of those courses, there are people with cow bells or whistles. Because there's places where people are allowed to cross the course and and it's like a warning. Yeah. And it's a warning. Because when you're coming I mean, you're coming through, you know, people don't even realize the speeds. Yeah, you know, you can't stop. Like, you know, that you can't stop your freight train. Right. You know, and you're using the, you know, you're using the terrain, to control yourself and manage your speed. But if you're at racing speeds, you're not, especially if there's a jump that's coming up or a drop off or, you know, some sort of something that you have to pay maybe it's a maybe it's a baby head rock garden that the only way clean through it, is to hit it 2530 miles an hour. Yeah. Right. I mean, and if you once you get in that regard, you're not the there's one way to stop and that's crashing. Yeah. So it's that type of thing. They ring those. But other people, you know, there's nobody monitoring. So there's people with those kazoo things and just trying to be distracting. Oh, you know what, they're just trying to be in it. And a lot of them are not even, we're not even racers and stuff. You know, they were just riders and they would just be they just wanted to be crazy. You know? Just like, you know, it's like, bicycle. Bicycle fans are crazy. It's like Tour de France. You know, there's Nikki guy running beside Yeah. You know? I mean, they didn't do that. But there would be that'd be crazy, crazy dudes, you know, with their, with their shirts off ringing a cow bell. Right in a turn that you're that you're going through and you don't pay you don't really pay attention. You might hear a cowbell, but it doesn't register. Yeah. until much later. Yeah, no. But it's but the difference there is. Like it's a lot, that's a lot easier to focus because there's so much going on. But that high reading in, and the amount of feedback that you're in the middle of in racing, a downhill mountain bike is overwhelming in the first place in in watch your, you know, the extra septic that's just around you in on your trailer in front of you. Yeah, it's so much. And you're so focused on it anyways, that like outside of that can't exist,

there's a ranking score system to assess, one to be ability to attain a level of very high hyperfocus has Stan it's an ICU, it stands for new, interesting, challenging and urgent. And that's one of the things that makes shooting so hard, because there's not it doesn't rank high in any of those. Yeah, especially on an easy course. It's not new, it's not interesting, it's not challenging, and it's not urgent. But when you do something like you know, because I used to race cars, and if you're in a race track, and you're going, you know, I've gotten my car over 200 miles an hour, you go in that fast, or on a bike running down a mountain with nothing on you, the challenging and the urgency aspect of that are very high, it will lock you in to a high extreme level of hyper focus for the remainder of that thing. And it's almost very, very hard to get out. And that's why you don't notice anything else happening. But the segmentation of required focus and shooting, being that you need it for, like 1.5 seconds, and then not for a minute, and then 1.5 seconds, and then 1.5 seconds, and then we'll run for seconds and then not for 10 minutes. Again, it's very, very hard to do that.

And it's it's interesting, because it's, it's very intricate, and very precise, and complicated in its own way. But the amount of like feedback in the amount of a information in comparison to many other things that take, you know, a greater aptitude with body. And a lot more dexterity, or hand eye coordination to make bigger moves and powerful moves. And things like this. There's there's a lot more to key off of, in those things. And ours are so subtle. Yeah, that if you you know, with those, you know, say that you're racing downhill mountain bike, there's a big rock, it's a big rock. Right? Like I can I can take it serious, semi serious. But at no point, is it not still a rock in the way. Right? Right? I might misjudge how big it is, or something like that. But I still judge that it was a rock. Right? And then it's in the way well, you know, if you if you like slip off of the subtleties of what we do, you have nothing. Yeah, you know, there's nothing there to grasp to because there's, it's all very subtle, you know?

So, talk to me a little bit about through that filter of this subtlety of the things that you're trying to pay attention to and then also execute. Talk to me a little bit about how the emotional and mental state that you're in, during around influences your ability to execute specific types of mechanics and movement. Yeah. And then, and then if you can talk to me a little bit about which ones are inaccessible, which movements and mechanics are inaccessible to you, in which states if that make does that question make sense?

Yeah, I think I'll kind of cover it all at once is, is if you ramp up the intricacies of the feedback that you get when you're when you see the target, diminish. So if you ramp up be increased tension, ramp up anxiety, push your energy levels higher. The feel that you get from the target the information that you get the subtlety that, you know, maybe it's drifting slightly left or slightly right, or something like that, that stuff's going to disappear, which you're going to in your, what you're going to have is, you're going to have a wine of the target you're going to have, you're gonna have knowledge of the target, but all the feel of the target. Ultimately, if you if you go too far with it goes goes away. And it it leaves you in a place in between? Well, really what it does, it leaves you in a place in between styles, right? We're talking about a style of shooting in, in what you've taught me and what you do use that is very holistic, and doesn't, you know, really focus on so much the placement of the barrel, after you view the target, there's not much thought about it not much thought on that there's not consciousness, necessarily directly associated with choice later in shots. And so it leaves you in a place in which you haven't received the information to have the feel of a target. And so the All that's left is to try and choose how to shoot it now. And it's bad, it's bad spot. If you do it, you know, there's there's levels of it. But if you can keep that anxiety down, and you can keep your emotional states at a more even ground it for one, shots become similar. Yeah, like if you're going to take one shot, and then take that same shot again, those shots tend to be the same if you can get your get yourself in your eyes and envision everything to a state a baseline a baseline, if you allow one of those shots. If you allow anything anxiety, nervousness, tension, anything like that, to be greater in in one of the shots, that shot will be different than what you intend. Yeah. Because the idea beings, okay, so you've worked in practice. Your goal is this baseline shot. That's how your goal Yeah, that's how you want to shoot. That's how your plans are, are made. The only thing that influences that is if you realize you're not able to control some aspects, say, maybe you had too much coffee, or maybe something happened in your life. And you're just not, you're not able to really control maybe it was a really difficult week at work, or something like that. And you're not really able to control the anxiety of the pressure of breaking a target today, as much so you feel more anxious. And if you recognize that you're not really able to control that today. You have to change the baseline that's going to change the shot. For me that's going to probably push shots later than what I can normally make them. I can do things in practice I can't do in competition. A lot of things in practice, I do exactly the same in competition, but some things in practice. I can't necessarily duplicate time and again, in a competition, and that's because my baseline in practice happens to be lower. Yeah. Then and Lower, lower and more stable than what my baseline It can be managed in, in tournaments, sometimes. Sometimes it's generally throughout the realm the baselines a little higher. And sometimes the difficulty of the bird or something like that will influence what that baseline needs to be. Now, if I miss judge that, in, I think I'm that guy from practice, and I actually am not. And those those levels are off, they're higher, that shot will be bad. And I might not be able to control it for the for that entire stand if I don't get a hold of it. And I don't have that self realization that this is what's happening. This might be the shot I want to take. But I don't have it in me today, or it's in me, I just can't get to the place that I can make it. Yes. So what place can I get to? And what will that shop look like?

If you want a really interesting example of that. And I noticed that a lot. Even for myself, when I teach at clubs after a tournament it'd be like, I'll start teaching Monday morning after the tournament ends on Sunday. And obviously, I'm teaching on the targets I shot in the tournament. And if it was not a good tournament for me, even it's like, you know, even if I was in even if I made top 10, you know, I'm disappointed in that. And I'll go Monday morning with my first student. And I'll go to the course and be like, this was the course that I shot. You know, it hadn't been changed at all. Wind hasn't changed it at all. Lighting is no different. Same time of the day, same weather, and it looks 20 to 30%. Easier. Yeah, the targets look slower. They look closer. They look more detailed. And I'm thinking like, Sure, the first time that that experience happened to me, was that Northbrook and I thought surely they changed this course. There is no way that this has not been changed. And it wasn't changed.

Well remember i I told I told you about earlier and I think this part guys we talked about when I went out and practiced a blackjack after I had shot the course and went back to I was able at every station that I missed any birds that own the station. Yeah. And some of those stations. I was like, what was I doing here? Holy moly. Yeah.

I mean, think what was

the bird? I was I there were some birds. I was like, That thing looks that thing. How did I miss that?

That was a monster this weekend. Yeah. I remember being small, yes, small and small and 30 yards further away. And it's like,

I could shoot it before the tree today. And it's, it's like, Why was I doing what I was doing? Well, I wasn't controlling so then that's why you're so good to go back and experiment and in and revisit that course for me was because, okay, now I'm clean. And these are the shots that I wanted that to make what was going on with me, now I'm familiarizing myself with where I need to be to make those shots. So next time I see that shot, hopefully my subconscious and and my conscious knows where I need to be. And that target no longer looks small, because I'm able to be there with it.

Yeah, literally the reason why I have these questions in this order, you know, the like the first two is but you know, in summary in our notes is the influence of your mental state on number one, your vision and number two, your ability to execute certain mechanics. The reason why that that I have that in that order is because of exactly what we just talked about, which is that you brought up your baseline level is more stable and lower in practice and designed to match and as is everybody's and, and your, your baseline emotional. And which we will also that's tie the two words of mental state and emotional state together. Your mental slash emotional state. When that becomes elevated, in any sense of of that word elevated. It drastically influences your vision because it influences your breathing and your eye oxygen levels which influence your vision, like neurologically and chemically. And that's what's happening when you, you know, if you're in an elevated state, and you're not assigning some level of interceptive, self awareness to how you emotionally and mentally feel during around, and you're not aware of that just continuously climbing and getting higher and higher levels of baseline, during around, then you're not going to notice how much it's influencing your vision because physiologically your body is changing because of that state that you're in, it's changing in your blood oxygen levels is changing in the data rate that your eyes send information to your brain, that's going to change. So, you know, the emotional state changes your vision, the vision influences your emotional state, because you see it further away, faster, smaller, less detailed, and then you think, Oh, my God, that's hard. Yeah. And then because you think, my God that's hard, then that feeds back again, in a feedback loop to your vision, and then that influences your body. Because as you just said, as your baseline goes up, you have certain things accessible or inaccessible to you. And one of those things as your ability to find nightly use a finesse of movement, I almost said a word that I know he's gonna listen to this. Ron Schwartz and New York always he coined the term finesse of aggressive and finesse, but it's like, your ability to make a move that's purely finessed with a bird goes away, when that baseline goes up. And that baseline goes up because of your vision. So when and, and your emotional state. So all of these things are connected. And basically your your ability to do brain surgery with your gun in the target, that precise of movement is inaccessible to you if you lose control and awareness of these things.

Yeah. I mean, when it when it's happening, it feels a little, it's a little panicky, you know, for sure, I mean, that's, that's really the sensation, when you get it, when you have it wrong. That's the sensation that you get, yeah, is a little bit of panic.

Yeah, that's happening because of the bad visual information that makes the targets look further and faster, which makes because of your high levels of extra perception, you have an extra layer of processing, and decision making, for your go time as you can easily say,

you can do that you can do it to yourself, without the bird really doing anything. If you feel fearful of a target, if your confidence is lower on a target, all of a sudden, these things start making targets look faster, and they start making targets. So further, they start making targets look smaller, you know, and you know, strangely enough, the gun gets bigger than two.

Yeah, that's okay. Well, that kind of answers that next part, which is, you know, talking about your emotional perception of your external environment and how that changes your ability to use, you know, specific visual or physical mechanics. That's all of what we just talked about. D, do you have any questions on any of that stuff from a student perspective that you or, or things that you think other people would want to ask, listening to this conversation?

They they may have you know, we're talking about this in the light of how we shoot. And that is a connectedness to the bird that's not related to the tip of the barrel. It's related to the feel that we get in making the move. And that starts from the moment that anything can be sick, the moment that motion can be seen. And even or heard, even if it's a hidden trap. So keep in mind that the, what we're talking about how we're talking about it can be applied across the board in any style. But, you know, we've already pre planned the shots. And we're trying to do our plan, run our process in and make our plan as pure and precise as we can. And we're talking about how far off of that pure and precise imagined shot that we are.

Yeah, coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. You would basically experience it where if you experience the way you would experience it in the shot if you don't shoot the way that I shoot, because that this is applicable across the board, there, we're not talking about mechanic specific things or shooting approach specific things in this conversation. This is just for every single person that ever shoots a shotgun. And the way that if you come at the game, from the opposite end of the spectrum, mechanically, that you would experience this in your shot, would be in the use of soft in the use of the transition from soft focus to hard focus around your insertion point, because what would happen would be that you would have less, less of an ability to smoothly connect to the bird at your insertion point. Because you have a higher levels of physical tension, it's going to feel more rigid and movement. But then also, the transition visually from soft focus to hard focus is, is basically going to be extended for a longer period of time, because of your heightened sense of all these other external factors that are influencing you to stay stuck in more of an extra receptive awareness, which is going to force you to be more attentive to the gun and the gap. And, and you're going to pay attention to the speed of the bird more, you're going to see it more instead of feel it more. And you're going to basically, the transition from psychotic movement from like static saccadic movement, to moving smooth pursuit movement is going to be very, very long. And because of your heightened sense of extra receptive things. So while Curtis was talking, I did look up an easy way to define it, you can think of extra perceptive awareness, as all of their five senses, smelling, seeing, hearing, tasting and feeling interoceptive awareness is sensory perception, internal sensory perception, like, of, of like inside of your body, feeling that you're hungry or feeling that you're tired, or that you have to go to the bathroom, those that's interceptive. It's breathing and tension and things like that. So because you're more focused in this extra receptive space, and meaning that your your, your, your high, and a higher level of awareness of your peripheral vision, the bird is going to look faster coming from peripheral into center ocular, and that's going to make it you respond quicker. Yeah. And so it basically nets the same result, but just on a different road. Yeah,

you may experience it as, like, a sense of at the time that you normally think that you would become connected to a bird and take a shot, you might experience a sense of slight apprehension. And that connectedness to take the shot will become semi elusive. Yeah, almost to the point where it's like, oh, there was it's gone. Yeah. And you will in, you'll be back in the apprehension. And you just, it just will be, you won't be able to grasp the finality of finally taking the shot. Yeah, it'll happen in fractions of a second. But that's that's what, you know, it would feel a sense of apprehension, and then the shot would become elusive. And the shots gone. Yeah, at that point. Adios. Yeah.

Trying to think if this is a good I don't know if I liked the order of this, but we'll go with it

and practice approach value. Yeah. So

we talked about that's what I that's what I'm thinking. It's

not really good. We kind of went over it before. Yeah, I mean, we could retouch it real quick.

I think we did go over it. And I think it brings me into how I want to ask you some about the last three things. What but I want to reframe what the question is just a little bit. So it says that I want to talk a little bit about your ability and level of focus of conscious attention in the following things practice tournaments and lessons. But I also want to add on to that that I want you to give a little bit of your perspective on. On if you can define the category of things that you are focusing on in those three different subsets so like, what is important for you to pay attention to while you're practicing what is important for you to pay attention to while you're in a tournament and what is important For you to pay attention to while you're learning or in a lesson, if that makes sense.

So, okay, yeah, so my ability to focus my consciousness in practice, Mike, it is most of a lot of practice for me has a lot more consciousness of, of stepping on aspects of the shot when I say stepping on aspects of the shot, over influence in certain aspects of the shot, to get it to be where I want to be. So I may over influence, one aspect at the set sacrificing another one, because I'm trying to I'm trying to raise in and find that baseline for for types of shots.

So you're like hyper focusing on one specific thing in the shot mechanically or visually that you're trying to influence? And you're dialing it up or down? This in spite of everything else, just to see what happens?

Yeah, I mean, it's different if I'm practicing a particular shot. And I've already, I've already found the baseline that I want remember that style, that formula? Correct? Yeah, the formula for that shot. And now I want to solidify it. So I want to, I want to, you know, I've already tested it, I've tested it early, I've tested it late, this is the place I want to be comfortable, this is how I want it to be okay, then I'm going to drill that a little bit, you know, that, I'm going to try and get to the unconscious, I'm going to try and get to more of a state in which I would try and shoot it in a tournament, because that's what I'm trying to duplicate. But for a lot of practice, I'm not as familiar with a bird I'm These are challenges that I'm trying to give myself in a lot of cases. Yeah, so I'm shooting more exploratory. So I have a lot more consciousness of how I felt, I might have even more consciousness during the shot of making an adjustment, or something like that, where I'm just stepping on it a bit more to, to challenge it to, to try and make it something that at the current you're currently it's not. For me, I'm trying to get that feel. I'm trying to I'm trying to find. So it's very exploratory. And I'm conscious of that exploration. Yes. So in tournaments I'm not doing I'm not exploring during the tournament I should have, I should make a plan on a pair of birds. You know, run through my pre shot routine and my setup. And I'm, I'm about execution when I'm when I'm shooting in a tournament, so my consciousness in shots should be very low. In my in my pre shot it, there's consciousness, that that's fully conscious. But in my in my setup, and in my shot process. It shouldn't be it should be. I've already I've already made decisions. Right? I shouldn't be bringing decisions into the shots. Yeah. Now, there is consciousness. Between Stan's as I think about how the rounds going, there might be Conte, there might be a heavy consciousness that during in a tournament in between pairs throughout the round at different times that I'm not actually shooting. I'm assessing how the round is going, how I feel, and, and making conscious changes to how I'm shooting. Maybe I thought today was a day that I could put the heat to it. I shoot the first three stands. The first three stands and and maybe it goes good, but my level of apprehension, my level of anxiety I can feel it start to climb. And if I don't get control of this and I don't calm back down, I'm not going to survive the day. Yes. So I need to pull in the level of conservativism I need to pull in a level of slowing myself down. Or else I'm not going to survive this day, my, you know, my score is going to take a lot of damage from this, because I know myself well enough to that if I start ramping like that, I'll be you know, It'll kind of be like a, you know, nuclear reaction, you know, that doesn't have enough water to cool it or something. And it'll just be it'll just get it'll just get a little out of hand. You know, so those are conscious choices. I have a consciousness of that I try to have a consciousness of that, you know, to, you know, but it's not during the shots. Yes. And and it's in. And hopefully, I don't have to do it too much. In a stand, you know, going into going into a stand assessing the birds of a stand, maybe in between stands, yes. In between birds, I hope I have a good enough feel for who I am going into the stand and setting up my plan, that I'm not having to reassess that in between pairs. Yeah. You know, because if, if that's the case, in between pairs, I'm getting a little off the rails probably, you know,

I had to take some notes, because I knew my brain, I had a few thoughts while you were saying that, that I wanted to talk about and I knew I would forget them? If so, talk to me a little bit about how how do you? Or even do you struggle at all, with the, the back and forth changing of sets of focus in a tournament and what you're paying attention to in a box? Or during the execution of a full round? Is that something that you struggle with at all? Or

say that again, maybe give me an example of what you're thinking?

Okay, I'll say it a different way. Talk about the difficulty, or if it's not difficult what you do, in order to be able to successfully change the specific thing you're paying attention to, throughout the whole course of around from one thing to next to the next as the round progresses. Because a lot of people struggle with being able to understand, do I stay hyper focus for the full round? Do I on my shooting and on my planning? Or do I need to make it to where, you know, I'm planning for a little bit as I see the birds and I step away and I can become more social and then when I get in the box, I have to think about like my pre shot routine in the rehearsal of my plan. And then when I go to call Paul, I need to shut that off and focus on my on the bird visually like is that anything that you struggle with at all? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it is. If I allow apprehension to build and I become score score focus or or if I become less process focused, and I become more product focused. I will carry a lot of that in between stands. And and build in the focus will be wrong.

I try and in between stands. You know, I may assess how the last stand went. But these days, I try and take that time, a little lighter. I mean, I kind of I kind of rent I don't I don't want to ramp up but I kind of work up to the next stand. Because the next stand is what matters. What's next matters. What has happened. I try and glean the bit of information that I can from it. In the sense of say my focus was slipping on the last stand. Maybe it was an easy pair. You've seen me do this. Maybe it was an maybe it was an easy pair. And I went into stand with a good plan. And slowly through the stand up buy the last pair maybe it was a four pair maybe easy pair four pair standard, or maybe a medium pair. But I should have read And, you know, maybe I ink balled the first pair, maybe the second pair, but then I just flipped it on the autopilot, and pulled focus to where there actually wasn't much focus, I wasn't focused externally to the people talking behind me. I wasn't necessarily focused on the bird either. I was really, you know, there's times when I, like, I'll almost just take time out. It's not good. It's not good. And, and I may get through the stand and in have broken all the birds, you know, but I can feel it. Like, I felt those two birds, those two first birthday felt perfect. And I don't even really remember what I felt, as I finished that stand on the last pair. You know, if I don't, if I'm like that, I need to do something. That's information I'm taking to the next day. And I can't continue that. Yeah, I need to change something about what I'm doing about what I'm thinking to stay engaged. Now, I've also we've also talked about in I've been experimenting with this. How many pairs that I watch if I'm the last person in the group shooting, depending on what the view pair is. You do do I make and solidify my plan right then? Or do I take a look, consider different things have a soft plan that, at that time, step away, because there's going to be a gap between that time between time I actually get to shoot in maybe it's a five person squat in that time the first person views them, maybe I step away, have that as kind of my, you know, my basic rudimentary plan. And then I re approach to stand out about maybe a person and a half, before me, depending on who's shooting in front of me. Sometimes, I might want to see a little bit of the person before that, or the person before that maybe I don't want to watch the person in front of me, or something like that. But in that in a lot of times, that's when I will solidify my plan is I've done my research, I've got my information, you know, I have a soft plan. And then I'll kind of step back to it. After maybe the first two and a half shooters have have gone through, can't watch all those birds can't, can't sit, I typically can't sit there through an entire round. And watch all of their birds dreaming of my plan. For one, it, it creates too much familiarity with my plan. Without execution. You know, my plan is all about execution for me. And if I watched some too many other people shoot it right in succession, all shooting slightly different than my plan. What kind of information am I actually giving myself? I'm not interesting, I'm not giving myself my plan. I'm giving myself things that are slightly different than my plan now and record. And now I'm actually logging things I kind of don't want to do and put in, in putting it on top of the thing I do want to do when the thing I want to be focused on is what do I want to do?

It's, I'm interested about that, because that's something that I hear a lot of people talk about. And like I know, Wendell, or Tom will always you know like if we're shooting in the squad together three person, three, the three of us and there's a for persons when there's somebody in there that you know has a very different or wild move. They always want me to follow them because it it hugely influences their shooting to have to watch that. To me, I don't even notice. And I am and I wonder why that is. To me, I would rather be some behind. I would rather fight follow somebody and watch people shoot that are wildly different from mine, because generally that means that, that I get more information on the bird.

Well, I Okay. There's, there's logic to that. I also find that if the person in front of you, in front of me, is a bit like me, but only close, I find that it's not always that great. Do you mean

that it influences how confident you are in what you're planning to do? Because as you see them, do it, if it's working, you're like, Well, maybe that should be what I do, or knowing that you somehow you just soak up,

somehow, I soak up. It happens to me every once in a while with you, where I'm following you. And my planning, a lot of times, it's very similar. But might be, I might shoot just a hair later than you. Because maybe my, my, the the magnitude of my trust and ability in my eyes is not as great as yours. So that allows you to be a little earlier with the shot than I. And at times, all step up behind you. And I've had watched too intently, yours. But it was so close to mine that I've made, I've somewhat allowed it to influence what you know, I knew my breakpoint. And where where I saw it click clearest was slightly further along in its in its in its line, then where you were where you were breaking. And I was okay with that. But then I can come up there. And mistakenly, because I almost am receiving a second program that's a little souped up. versus my pure program. Yeah, that I had. You know, so I find I do find, you know, if it's a good example. I don't have any problem shooting behind Haley. Right? Because Haley lets me see all of the bird, Intel, it's like three feet from the ground. And I can I can see, I can see a couple of her pairs and then step up and shoot it exactly the way that I want. Because I don't have any, there's no influence from that to me, because she shoots many, many targets in such such a different way than I do. And so I'm fine with that. I mean, it just about makes me scream shoot it. Yeah. You know,

you ever if you're if you're following like me, and I'm shooting him earlier, do you ever extend the movement of the bird with your eye? Like after I shoot? Do you ever keep your eyes moving and your body moving to rehearse what it would be like where you want to?

Yes, but it depends on it depends on where I have a where I have a greater influence on my shot. If, say it's that first bird that you're breaking a little sooner. And one of the things and it's a report pair. And one of the things that is that I have deemed in my program that I feel is a danger zone of a potential pitfall or mistake, being the transition from one bird, to where I want the eyes and the barrel to go. For the second bird. I kind of have to make that if I'm going to, if I'm going to like rehearse that while you're shooting. That has to happen from the break. Right? And if I don't respect that you've broken that sooner that I'm going to break that later. I can institute that sooner break into my plan and not really have and not really have a consciousness that I've been influenced. doesn't happen very often. I'm talking very subtle. Yeah, I know to me, right? Yeah. But I've seen it happen to me. Yeah. Where It's like dammit, I just I just went through this stand, trying to make not quite my shot. I was I was stuck in between my shot and David shot, because I watched David Sharpe Yeah. Right. And the transition ended up not being a problem because I actually had rehearsed the transition plenty and snapped the eyes in the barrel to the right place, regardless of what happened with the first bird. But it ended up being the first bird that I ended up little lost on. And some of that was, you know, in my planning in my rehearsal, in my viewing of those early pairs, I wasn't completely true to my plan, and allowed it to be to be influenced. It's not really a focus thing, like, like your aspect, but it's, it's where, where I've allowed influence to come in, I've been out there, I'm searching for it. Right? Yeah. You know, because, you know, you're intently watching them, can we get there, and then they're there. Right? And you're mocking that move all the sudden, you just actually kind of mocked his plan? Right? Right, you gotta be careful about that, you know, I mean, your game. Your game is a lot more stable than everybody else's, you know, not everybody else's. But everybody that's not to your to your level, you know, the other 50 Guys, or so that are our full on pro, you know, and I've done it many, many years. Right. So, guys, like myself that are, you know, that are working on, you know, solidifying who they are as a shooter. And getting to that, that level, which, you know, their style is pretty well all defined for themselves. Which leaves less questions in, you know, you have less questions, I would say, in any payer, then somebody like me, you know, developing my plan, my plan in my, in my shot, has more pitfalls in it on any shot than what your scars, and mainly because you've spent a lifetime so far eliminating those. And some of you know, in many, for many jobs, they still exist for me, you know, at whatever level, right? So I have to be, you know, more focused and more conscious, on a little bit bigger number of things. Because the number of mistakes that I potentially will make. Are, is both more numerous, but also more dramatic. Yeah. You know, when I see you make a mistake, well, it depends. But when I see you make a mistake, it's it's pretty rare that it costs you a bird. And when it does, it's very subtle. Yeah. Right. It doesn't just look like you randomly shot four feet over the top, you know, it can for me at times, right? You know, because I just you know, I let I let a bunch of different you know, mistakes pile on top of each other and I just really did bad on that, Bert.

Yeah, I had an interesting thing happened to me and architects were because it's been so long since I last shot a tournament that I do you remember the first day? So the first day started off? I dropped one on the first station? Then we go to the second station and it was those, those two incomers and the third station was a, like a cornering fast cornering bird on your left. And then there was a incoming bird coming in and like going into the tree kinda. Who's before right before you make the turn into the corner? Fast coding bird don't Yeah, yeah. Okay, so it was a difference between my 94 on Friday and my 98 on Saturday. And then what led to my 100 on Sunday, where I think had I not noticed this on this station. On the third station that we shot, I'd probably instead of a 98, I probably would have had 94. And what happened was because I'd been so far removed from shooting tournaments, I kind of lost that internal awareness of how my body was feeling to be able to assess what parts are like different layers. Here's my planning for shots. And I was just noticing inconsistency and weirdness in the gun just felt super foreign to me. And my movement felt very rigid in shots. And we get to that verb, which was a very fast bird and required, like a quick first birth. Yeah, require like a quick, but finite movement in the gun in terms of the mount it was, it wasn't very long, no. And so I made the first shot, hit it. And I was like, if I keep doing that, I'm gonna miss it. What felt weird. And I couldn't quite put my, I couldn't quite pinpoint what it was. I went to go set up to see, I wasn't planning on calling, but I wanted to set up to see if I could feel something in my body that was wrong. So I sat up. And I noticed that in my routine, how I mount the gun changed my posture than dismount my gun, I was maintaining a lot of tension in my right shoulder and hand. And that was forcing me to make a movement in the mount that was purely just like right hand driven in the mount, which is dipping the front of the gun some in the movement. And as I progressed through and mounting when the when the target comes out. And as I Oh man, I've got like a 70% blend of right handedness and my manage and it should be almost 100% driven by the front for the left hand. And I was like, Okay, so now I pinpointed that me reset. So I dropped the gun back down again. And I got relaxed, and I set up. And I had that low allowed myself to have that tension. And then I let go of it. And then I felt the weight of the gun transition to the front hand. And I called pull and it was 80% better. And the movement was more fluid, I felt the bird better in my body, hit it harder, and hit the second bird and go to the third pair. And did it again, even better than the maybe it was it was either the third or fourth pair. It was four birds. Yeah, but unfortunately, I can't remember if this happened on my last or second last pair. But I almost missed the second bird. Because I had a moment where I made it to where I had 0% movement or control of the gun from my backhand and one of my either my second last or last pair on that first bird. And it felt so fluid. I hit the bird disappeared. It was purely dust. It was only when I hit like that on that station. And the fluidity of my movement was ridiculous. It felt it felt exactly like the line of the target. And my brain got so attached to that. I was like, Whoa, that felt good. I and that was the one where that little tiny dinky income or I literally cracked it in half. I almost missed a second bird because because of the thought that came into my head was been doing this for 20 plus years. How did it just now realized I had so much tension in my body is because for for 116 targets that I had shot. I was not paying attention to my body. And even though I was making good plans, I wasn't assessing my ability to make that plan happen. Because I wasn't paying attention to that. Yeah, interesting.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Well, that was a that was a far more difficult bird than than what it appeared.

That first one Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was hard

to shoot it. I mean, I shot it before, like just about right when it started to curl down. And it only that thing only went 20 yards. Yeah. And only got to be five feet high. Yeah. You know, and it had a decent amount of spring in which in pacer came off and started curling down. Yes. And I on that on that particular shot. I was connected enough to the bird. I never really saw it break. I sent the message the bear I had the barrel in the right place. My move was good. And I and I never I thought it broke. Yeah. But I had already moved the transition. You know, I had to transition to the to the other bird. I trusted that I had to trust. I had to trust that shot a lot. Yeah. You know, yeah, you have to be the Enable of it. Yeah. And they're just there's not there's no consciousness. There's not consciousness during that shot and you have a car just goes right after that shot. Yes, you know of what that shot but if you step on the consciousness of that is, you know, there's not anytime I mean, Haley shot him right near the ground, you know, that's a different shot. Yeah, much different Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, how about that same filter question, but through the process of learning and taking lessons

you know, learning and taking, taking lessons and coaching and learning is somewhat about letting like letting go. And, you know, whatever your code, if, you know, if it's worth his salt, he's, he's probably telling you what he wants you to do. And because he wants you to get to a place and he or she, and you have to be willing to not come to consciously allow yourself to get out of the way and try. Whatever they are saying to do. Don't wonder whether or not it's right, yes. You know, don't consciously try and, and, and be, don't be in the way of it. Just try it. If it works, try it some more, then consciously start wondering, how is this working? Yeah. How is this making me feel? Why is this like this, on and on and on, and get to know it better. But your first goal is to just do it, yes. And not really get in the way of it, you know, to the point where you don't, you might not even really have a feeling when you first get it, you might not have any knowledge of how that just happened. Just, you might just have like a little, a little picture in your head and a slight familiarity with the feeling of it. Because it's so foreign. A lot of times when they're working with you on something, and you finally get it. It's so foreign. You hadn't imagined it in the first place. It wasn't part of your plan. Right? Because you didn't have a successful plan. That was like what he's teaching you before. So this isn't something that you're familiar enough with to have planned to do. This is something that you were told to do. And you were free enough to let it happen. And now you're trying to register. Okay, so what was that? What happened? What happened? And that's when you start becoming more conscious of it? What was it that happened and start owning it and start having it become part of you, and practice it in that type of thing. You know, when, when you're in the lesson, and you're in the learning phase, it's for me it's about it's about openness, and trying to understand what it is my, my instructor wants me to do. I'm not trying to create when I'm in a lesson, you know, unless he's asking me to do that, and we're working on something like setting up setting up pairs, or something like that. You okay? Yes, he's asked me to create, but I'm not trying to create some I'm trying to I'm trying to find what he's giving me. Yeah. Is is the way I look at it. And I want if I'm trying to create at the same time he's trying to give me something. I'm stepping on what he's trying to give me problems

and how do you how do you feel like you resist the urge to go on autopilot when you call pull, and instead actually try to execute something to only foreign in new in movement. Does that question registering in lessons? Yeah.

It's tough to do, you've been around those times when I, when I've struggled to do it, I can tell you that, you know, if you're gonna go to a lesson, you know, have your awareness high, get good sleep, be at, you know, be at the energy level, at least even better in some regards, then what you want to have when you go to a round of competition, because this is going to it should be hot, getting a lesson should probably be harder than then a round of competition. I think for you, I mean, because mentally, you're going to be doing, if you if your coach is if you're not just out there with somebody that just is all about bagging clays. Yeah. And he's, he's about challenging you, giving you new techniques that are unfamiliar to you that are going to advance your game, you're, you're breaking ground for yourself. And breaking ground is going to be the most unfamiliar, it's going to be the most, some of the most taxing, mentally taxing, shooting that you're going to do. Yeah, because he should have you on birds that you may never, or very rarely see in competitions, he should have you shooting, shooting birds, or doing things with birds, or with the mechanics that you have never done, and are completely unfamiliar with. And the whole time that you're in that you have to be processing it, you have to be putting it into its correct places in your brain because you've got to log all this stuff, and go, go practice, go practice it, and instituted into your game. You know, after you leave this lesson, right, that's a lot going on. As you're taking these shots. I mean, I leave sometimes I leave, you know, a lesson we've shot 150 shells, and I can be exhausted. Yeah, I can be exhausted. And, you know, and I haven't even processed all of it. I haven't even had a chance to

Bella, that's Mike is picking that up. I don't want to I'm gonna move my dog. Hold on one second. And always having a little party over here.

Yeah, I mean, you're you've got to, you know, I haven't even had chance to, at this point, I haven't even had a chance to actually practice on my own. And with my own thoughts, test what I've just learned out there without my coach, you know, the time the time that you spend, you know, in lessons and learning, you know, you, I mean, if you're paying for this, you know, you should be you should be receiving information, you should be receiving everything that you can, so that then you can go process it, put it together, try and use it, you know, complete the learning aspect of, of, you know, of the process, right? I mean, if you go to a lesson, mostly, you probably haven't learned it. When I say learn to you know, some some level of mastery, some level of familiarization that allows you to use it. Right? You probably haven't gotten that. Yeah, right. That's for you to get mostly kind of on your own. When when you're out there

with the help of your coach telling you. This is how you should practices or drills you should use. Yeah, and this is how you should be experiencing if you're making progress. This is what you'll be experienced if you're if you're regressing. I also want to add that, you know, you're talking about like you should come with a high level of awareness and, you know, to answer the question, answering the question that you that you were answering there There's things that the student can do, you know, going into the lesson. But also on top of that it is with a good instructor or coach, you know, every day, I'm giving a lesson a lot of times to have somebody that just doesn't know how to have the level of awareness to be able to control their body in a way to do something new as opposed to go on autopilot. That's my job. That's what they're paying for me to do is not just teach them it, but also guide them into the right headspace to be able to overcome that autopilot response. But you can obviously, think about and like pre load this mindset that you want to be in for the lesson in order to have that be as effective as possible, so that I don't have to spend the time to deconstruct your movement. Because we can't get it to where you can, you can do something new, that's always very, very helpful. If a student can come to the lesson in that space, and generally, if you've never taken a lesson before, it'll be hard to understand what we're talking about if you have and you work with a coach consistently, like, it's very rare now with any of my students who I've seen more than once or twice, that I ever have to get to that stage in the lesson where I have to like, Okay, let's go do this. I'm going to do this drill and deconstruct what you're paying attention to and make it to where now you're, you know, getting to the point where you can move consciously with your body as opposed to autopilot. But everyone's smiling happens in the first lesson or so. Anything else you want to add on that? Okay, so didn't filter questions. You have questions for me?

No, I think that was Oh, yeah. Was that that was about the

that's all of these. Yeah, the other part was questions. That

was about the journey kind of right.

Well, we covered all that. But basically, what I, if you did your homework correctly, Curtis, you're supposed to come with questions for me. But also, we're at four hours. Really? Yeah. For part two? No, yeah. Plus three hours on part one.

Wow. Okay. Well, there was a couple. You go ahead. Well, we'll just I think this was more along the lines of

these were, I think you would ask me what things would help as, as I begin this journey to change the way that I shoot? What kind of stumbling blocks? Did I run into? That were eye opening? And kind of hard to get past? Or? That

you want me to read the question? Yeah, yeah. It was, during specific key moments or transitional periods of your journey of learning? What were some of the main turning points or moments where if you had the answer to specific questions, it would have shortened the progression time of your learning? And then what would those questions have been? Okay,

so I didn't so much write down the questions, but I did write down some of the key moments. One was the understanding that the style of shooting was not at the tip of the gun focused. I knew it was different. I did not have a have a vocabulary really, or an understanding of where different was going to finally go? Yeah. And that was that you have to take the journey to get to understand because you're, that's why I don't really have, you know, what question would I have asked at the time, because I would never have been able to have formulated the that right, that right question. Why my whole my whole body of work was something different.

I think what I had no awareness, what I meant was now like, the reason why I framed that question, the way I did was basically to give you the backstory would be, obviously, while going through the process, we don't know what questions to ask. But now having the fact that you have gone through the process, if you could start the process over again, but retain all the information that you have, what would be a question that you would ask them Help people going through it for the first time without that knowledge.

With regards to what I just said, it would be

to like the filter be not to help you.

It would be with an understanding that we are no longer going to shoot with a conscious awareness

of the placement of the barrel to bird relationship during the shot I guess the question, then, how will I know where my barrel is? Right. So a question something like that. That takes me from

what I was familiar with, and tells me what it is that I'm going to, towards in the unknown? Yeah, another another statement I had. So

let me answer that one, then. And then move on next one, the answer would be that you shouldn't. And I know, I know, you know the answer these questions. But that's a great question. And it's a perfect question that a lot of people will ask, if I'm not going to look at where my gun is, how do I know where it is? The answer is, don't try to know where it is. Because if you try to know where it is, what ended up happening is, again, you're partitioning your awareness and your attention into the wrong thing. And that doesn't allow your eyes to work neurologically in the way that you need them to, which doesn't allow your body to move proprioceptive ly the way that it needs to, and therefore the whole system is broken. So by caring where the gun is, and trying to say, Well, I was told to look at the target. But I also want to know where the gun is some way I want to pay attention to it peripherally. By doing that, by paying attention to it peripherally, instead of looking at where the gun is for the lead, and people, you know, what that literally will do will not allow the thing that you're trying to learn to work. And this is why I would love to have people on like Ben hostway, or some people who publicly would disagree with me on on the fact that you know, like, how can you how can you say that you don't see the gun? It's not that I don't see the gun, as I'm not paying attention to the gun. I have an awareness. Yeah, well, you have a proprioceptive awareness, you do not have a conscious awareness, which is why a lot of times you can't answer where the lead is because you're not consciously paying attention to proprioceptive ly your body feels where it is and knows where it is. Because that would be like saying, if you if somebody would argue that you can't look at the bird and not pay attention to the where the gun is and put it in the right place, then you would also be arguing that you can't walk with your eyes closed. If you say that you can't walk with your eyes closed, and you can't actually physically do that, then I would I would concede to the fact that you can't not, you know, do this and through the filter of shooting, but but the only way to experience it correctly is by by not trying to care where the gun is. Because if you do, it will break that proprioceptive chain, and you'll be trying to do the thing that we talked about as professionals, but you will be failing at it because you'll be pushing it through the filter of the old way to shoot. And that's the hardest barrier to get through it by far the hardest pair to get through. And

remember the last my last pair, my last stick our last Steen on Sunday and I missed two birds. Yeah. I broke the first pair. And there are three three parents Stan and I missed the second bird of both of the second third pair. And that there there's a lot more to it. But the bottom line was is it put me in a position. I've shot it more conservatively. And I shot it more conservatively on purpose. But what it ended up doing was it put me in a place on the second bird that I don't like because I did have to be I had to place the barrel and have it was became too conscious because of where that where I had let the bird get to. Now that had to be a much more conscious shot. Because the I didn't have much feeling left in what the bird was doing and I didn't like that. Because each time that I did that, and I went there that became too gun

focus. Yeah, same thing. I imagine the same thing happened to me, obviously, because it's the same shot. Yeah. But I had to shoot the 100 straight. Yeah. And I'm like, I know, I don't want to look at the barrel. But this thing is forcing me because you're right. It had no feel to perceptively move with

Ansley had been shooting the the other style. That's an easier shot.

Yeah, it's that style. It's not an easier shot. It's a less scary shot. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. For me on that shot. If I don't, if I don't move to that bird, and pull the trigger. And I try and find, but what I'll try and do, I'll move to that bird. And take just a brief moment to feel that bird. Without consciousness of the barrel, I will put the barrel in the right place and pull the trigger. If I take a few moments to consciously see that bird? I will, I will then become conscious of the barrel. And then I won't know where I am. Yeah, like because of the style that I shoot. It has to be more, a little more. I don't want to use the instinctive because that kind of takes it in a different way. But it's a little more just purely what I'm seeing how the bird makes me feel in placing America. Yeah. Without consciousness of that so much I don't have a micro adjustment after I looked at the at the bird to finalize it. Yeah. And the reason I missed the two birds was I then looked for a micro adjustment only because I don't shoot it that way anymore. I didn't really know where to be, you know. And then by that time, now I've gone conscious and the bird is changing. And my the way that I move in the way that I move a gun is not for conscious. So I'm not with the bird anymore. I'm with what the bird used to be. And that's, that's what happened to me there. I mean, there's so and it can happen. I was birds. I mean, heck afterwards, I had him throw me throw me the parrot. And I shot it. Bang, right. Yeah. You know, and I do feel and when we talked about this before that, you know, I had more gas in the tank, that I probably could have ran that stand doing that. Yeah, you should. It would have been risky. Yeah. But for me on that second bird as a style of bird. I'm more comfortable doing that. Yeah, then what that bird turned into?

It's like a It's it's not riskier? It's because you have to, it's riskier. By the typical textbook. Yeah,

I actually got a four out of six, I can almost guarantee I would have gotten five out of six, you got six and or maybe six, because the shot was so easy. When I when I stepped back up and just thrown Yeah, didn't make really a plan. I knew what the plan. I knew what the plan was, which was the original plan that I abandoned for being conservative.

That's how I would have shot. So like, that was the way to shoot that pair was like pull bang, bang that that cadence. And instead of pull, bang, bang like that, and waiting for that second birth to get to that third, that third transition part of the line. And the assessment that like, if that was my first station, I would have shot it that way. Yeah, if it was in the middle of the course I would have shot it that way. But on the assessment I made to shoot it. The other way was that, like I knew by the time I got to at least in my last pair, and the fact that the way that the core structure was I was thinking there will be people coming up and I'd be more extra receptive. And that I would not be able to see the birds that well. And I gave myself no margin of error sitting on 100 100 100 straight on the call. I don't know why just hung up on that. I would have no margin of error. I had to have fully committed to a physical movement regardless and I wouldn't have time to make an adjustment if my eyes didn't work and if I was going to be amped and extra soft in my house, you're going to be spooky, so to speak. So I just chose the other thing which I liked less I was way more nervous to shoot the way that I chose to shoot it. But, but I made the decision that it was a higher probability shot.

And my mistake was, I guess I I abandoned what I had first seen for the more conservative method. But it was I left it in in the back of my mind, it was still on the table. Yeah. So to speak. Yeah. As the way I wish I could shoot a little teaser. Yeah, little teaser, and I don't do good if I leave it if I leave it there. And what I never can, what I've never committed to was I never, I never committed to. Okay, this second bird is going to be more conscious. And this is what it's going to be like, once I get there. Yeah. I never imagined that. I never. I never put that in the plan on what that would be. So then when I shot it, I got there. I was unfamiliar with what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I missed it. And then when I went to do the second pair, I mean, the the final pair that just proved to me like that, I should have just shot it the other way. And but I shot it conservative. And same thing happened. I got there. I was unfamiliar with where to be and what to do. And and then it continued to change on me and I didn't hit the bird. Yeah. You know, wasn't a difficult wasn't difficult bird. I just didn't have it in the plan. Yeah. You know, I had what I wished was the plan and never finalized that, that the rest of that plan. Yes.

Before we possibly get into another 30 minute question, if it's two o'clock, your, your flight leaves at four

leaves at 430. Okay, what

we should probably we have time for one more? Do we

have time for a hit? We have time to just run through these real quick, I guess. Let's see. I guess another one was that we were going to, I guess the question would have been? What is one of the major aspects that you that you are going to change about how I shoot? And to that? What caused me to turn that into that question was that this is a process based shooting, which most of which happens prior to pull. Most of the consciousness is prior to pull in a planning phase in a process phase. And that we're not going to be conscious, mostly that we're not going to be conscious during the shot we're going to execute. And that that was very different. You know,

what was your question to me?

I guess it was, you know, what is going to be different about? Oh, you got that about taking a shot or shooting? And? And the answer really would be you know, that it? It was a process? It's we're going to we're going to build a process based shooting?

Yeah, the answer is that it takes decision making out of shooting. Yeah, the, the, the process that I applied to shooting, you know, the problem is that scares a lot of people away is that the way that my brain works in explanation, when I'm talking to myself, so to speak on a podcast is it's sounds so complex, because I use big words, and I and I related to math and science, where you listen to other podcasts of other people on there, like, you got to look at the bird, you got to have a whole point of the quarter way back, and then you carpool and you feel it and you've pushed off with your hands and you're good to go. It's like, I just don't use an explanation like that. But because that type of explanation. I'm sorry, but it's bullshit to me. And that doesn't give you any information. It doesn't tell you why it's happening. It doesn't explain how it works. And so my explanation for what I do always sounds very hyper complex. But in all actuality, there is nothing more simple mechanically than doing this when you're shooting I literally never have an you know, you don't have the decisions that you're making. Is not what mechanic do I apply to this? What method do I use for this bird? Where do I want to shoot? Where do I need to shoot this bird? Where is my whole point? Where do I need to look? None of those questions ever come into play well What is the lead never comes into play? The only thing that comes into play is literally, where do you want to shoot it. Because there is, it doesn't matter that as long as it's a reasonable shot, you apply the same thing. And it works. It's math. And so all you have to do is literally you could randomly, you know, flip a quarter and have that tell you where to shoot it. And then all you do is just apply the formula. And it's a very simple thing that tells you that tells you how to stand where to look, what your drawing should be how fast you should move, everything, it just tells you, you don't have to think about it in a complex sense like that, all you have to do is rehearse it. And basically, the only thing boiled down into the most simple approach is that you have people on one end of the spectrum that when they go shooting, they want to not be analytical at all, then you have and they literally just want to go into the cage and shoot. And then you have someone like me who wants to be hyper analytical and, and you know, and win a match. Well, this system applies people on all ends of the spectrum. Because at a bare minimum, if you just read the line, you just look at the line, and you mark the branch that the target goes over where you want to shoot it and you mark the branch that the target is goes over where where the formula tells you to hold, then that all you have to do is do those two things. And it tells you everything tells you how to stand it tells you how fast move tells you your drawing tells you where to look, everything happens. And so it's mindless.

And and, and this is keeping him in. We're not confusing this with a random checker that pops out of a bush and goes some random direction. Yeah, that's this. You can't this we're not talking about that type of shot. We're talking about competition shooting where you know what the bird does? Yeah. Right. That's not we're shooting two birds. Or maybe if he does your shooting one, but you've gotten to see it, you're you have a level of familiarity with it. And those traps are not on wobbles. Yeah. Right. If it was if we shot this game with two rope wobble traps at every station, we would be talking about some different things also. Yeah,

it would be the same filter just less of a less of a, you would structure to prep,

you'd have to make a conscious decision after you saw what the bird through.

I would just say it'd be purely proprioceptive ly instinctive.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's this is all about, you know, you're setting up a plan because you know, what you can plan for? Right? This unless there's all the sudden big gusts of wind. But you can adjust to that. Because proprioceptive Lee, you're still taking the cue from the bird? Yes.

So, weird noise this goes back to the first part of what I said about the sculptor questions was it this is really

if I would ask, okay, based off of those two explanations, I might ask something like, So, what is going to happen with my bird barrel relationship, and in that it would be the realization that that I won't exist in a bird barrel relationship as in a good and extended period of time, for any real length of time. And that in you, you clarify this early on when when we

spoke, I think you put it that when you see the target best, what is it that you need to see more of?

So and beyond that point of seeing it your best? What is it that you need to connect to? And hold on to that you need to change?

Are you asking me that? Well,

I mean, that that would be kind of where that conversation would have been. Had I known to ask that original question. So what is happening to the bird barrel relationship? If we are shooting like this?

So I'm going to try to rephrase your question in a different way to make sure I understand that. Because if I do it that if I can change your wording, and to you it means the same thing that'll answer the right question that you're asking. When you're at the moment, where you're you have the best visual connection to the bird only. And you see it as good as you possibly can in terms of visual acuity. What else do you need in order to trigger the shot? And have it happened successfully? That I not understand your question.

No, I guess it's more. It's more like I'm rolling back like kind of to the beginning. Yeah. It's show what is I guess, with what you explained? So what is happening with that period of time? Awareness of the bird and Barrow, and relationship? What is happening to that? In this dial? What is that going to be like?

What is your how important is barrel awareness? And I'm confused.

I'm rolling it back to because you asked me what questions would I have asked? Yeah, at the beginning, at the beginning. Coming as a conscious and coming from a consciousness of barrel lead? Bird, right. I know. Right? I would be asking at that time, had I known to ask it? Well, what is happening to the consciousness of the barrel? bleed? Bird relationship? How am I going to know the lead? Okay,

so just how do you know the lead? Well,

how do I know the lead? How do I know the barrel? How do I know? The bird? How do I know that relationship? The relationship that I now? Don't even really see? I feel? Right. So the question I would have asked back then is so so what are we doing to that relationship? What are we doing to that consciousness? What is that going to be like? Now? I see it almost as well. It's not going to exist anymore. Yeah, it's just in a different way,

in a different way. And yeah, I think, tell me if this would if the answer to what I'm going to, in explanation to what I'm about to say would answer your question. When people are probably I remember telling you early on. And in, actually, it was probably a Cross Creek clinic that I did with Tom, I talked about how a lot of people will say, when you ask a really, really good shooter, you know, how do you see lead? And a lot of times, they'll say, I don't see lead, I feel lead. And I mentioned that, you know, in a lot of lessons with people, you'll get them to tell you to feel the lead and feel the lead. And that'll be an answer or response to a shot that's missed, like, you know, feel out your lead, and do it in your head, you know, that kind of thing. And I don't like that explanation. Because that's not an explanation. That's just a statement. And so the explanation of what is feeling the lead, would that answer your question?

Yeah, I guess, because I would be at that time, I would have been coming from a place that I didn't feel Yeah, you don't know what that is? I would, I would be seemingly Yeah. And my question would kind of be, then. So if, if we're going to feel lead, what am I gonna do? Am I not going to see it anymore? Like, I would have been? Yeah, I would have been very inquisitive about that. And I probably was, and we did this, you know, through lots of lessons and things like that, that, you know, and it took me because you remember me talking to you, like, I can't even explain to what we're doing to people that are back home, that shoot a different style. You know, because I don't know how to put it into words anymore. Yeah. You know, because

the way that you explain that is basically, it's a lot it's a longer explanation, but but basically what it is, is that you have to frame you have to frame the perspectives in in a contrasting way, where you have to say that okay, you've never out, you don't yet conceptually understand what feeling lead means. Right now your only perception of lead is through a visual two dimensional understanding of what it looks like. And the problem with determining lead through a two dimensional filter of what it looks like, is that that means that all of your attention, or any percent of your attention is on the space around the bird and in between the bird in the barrel. And if that's happening, then you're you are extra perceptive, your attention is on external things, and not internal things. And that, by definition, neurologically is why you cannot feel the lead. Because feeling the lead is an interceptive thing. It's an awareness of the way that your body feels during movement. And if your attention is on something, using one of your five senses, like paying attention consciously to the lead, you can not feel your body. And that's why nobody understands what that means if they look through the lens of seeing lead, and, and but you'll get somebody that doesn't have the understanding of being able to explain it well, as a coach, even a professional coach. And, and because they don't understand how that happens. It makes the shooter think that it's different, it makes us you to think you're going to change the way I shoot, by changing the way that I lead targets. No, I'm just going to change what you're perceptive to while you're shooting. And so it has nothing to do with, like, Oh, we don't pay attention, like we don't lead birds anymore, we never think about lead, it has nothing to do with that. And because that sounds like a mountain to climb over, it all is about where am I going to change your perception of what's important to you, to get a shot to happen, if you see lead, what's important to you to get a shot to happen is the two dimensional placement of the gun. But in the background there that is not being paid attention to is all the way that your body is moving to get your gun to be that in that place. What I'm gonna do when we talk about feeling lead, is I'm going to, we could take the shot. And think of it like this is just the first analogy that randomly comes up to my head. But you are programming a website. And what you as somebody who sees lead thinks of the website as is the user interface, the pictures, the colors, the spacing, what I think of the website, as as the person that built it, is the coding. And you don't see the coding unless you built it, or you understand how to work that. And so I can understand how, if I don't like the spacing between two paragraphs on my website, I don't just press ENTER twice, I go into the coding, and you change the padding or the margin, or whatever it is, and you can change it by pixels. So I understand that I know what it looks like to change in the background, what it will look like for the person reading it. And so it's the exact same thing and shooting where just because you see that doesn't mean the other stuff is not there, you just don't know it yet. And so in order to feel the lead, what you're doing is doing the exact same thing, but with a different perspective of what what to pay attention to. So that you have the ability to replicate the same thing over and over again, because there are 50 different ways that I can change the spacing between two paragraphs on a website. I can change it like I saw, I just named three padding margin or whatever. And I can make it make the same move can put the gun in the same place using 50 different moves. But there's only one that's really, really good. But how do I know if the one that I'm using is really good if I don't pay attention to the way my body feels? And so that's that's all of that is and it's in it's not a scary thing to change because you're not changing anything. You're you're actually making it better and more fluid to where we're taking away your attentiveness to the picture and we're putting it all dedicated your visual connectedness to the bird which frees up that proprioceptive feedback responsibility to feel your body.

Yes, yeah. And that brings up that brings up my my last statement here was that controlling trust, belief, anxiety, tension and the like. would play such a large impact on success in the purity of the proprioceptive shot. And that's really kind of takes us to kind of work where you just took that for is, instead of it being a call poll, see a bird, put a barrel out there and make a decision on where to be on that bird, you've pre planned, you've allowed it to become proprioceptive by understanding what what you're going to ask yourself to do. And allowing the, the energy of the bird in the flight of the bird to tell you proprioceptive ly, how to move, but you have pre planned it. But the probe, you know, and the trust, the trust, and the belief and controlling anxiety and tension and all those things allow you to perceive it in such a way that you can proprioceptive ly move to be in unison with that bird and shoot it. And, you know, and that's kind of like the, the big aha, yeah. Is is really once if you if anybody ever trains with David, and goes this route, I mean, be prepared for a journey. podcast? Yeah. Because you're gonna be changing potentially some of what you do, and how you think about things, and you've got to learn that, because you were probably taught in a different way. And if you want to institute some of what he has, it's, it's not really a sum. It's not really a sum that it's mostly an all thing. Yeah. And because you're me moving again, different. You're gonna be thinking about how you move a gun different. You're going to be releasing that connection that gonna be releasing that connection, and consciousness of the final shot. Yeah, you know, and you're gonna release it to a very specific plan, and a better understanding of yourself. And, you know, a proprioceptive connection to, to shooting. Yeah, that takes time to master. Yeah. And it's cool. And when you can do it, when it's fun. It's fun. It's a lot. It's a lot of fun.

It's so it's so effortless, easy, slow and calm. Yeah.

I mean, I've never there's a lot of birds. I've never hit as hard. Person purposefully. Yeah. I break them. Yeah. But I could not break them. You know, with the tightest joke I had. I could not necessarily Inc Bolam. Time and again, and shooting this way. I more often find that.

Yeah. Your brains better at doing it than your

Yeah, I mean, your brain is the is the best computer that was ever created. Yeah. And we only use a little bit of it that we know of. Yeah. Right. So train to use it. Yeah. And to let it do its thing, if you want to step on it during an activity, trying to perform mathematical equations, and guesswork. You have at it. Yeah. Because you can't do that very fast. You know, not as fast as what some of the targets that we see these days and the complexity of the targets that we see these days. And the length of the look, you get, yeah, and the length of the look that you get. I mean, target setters are thrown blistering stuff, you know, and it's like, are you gonna look at that for a long time? It's, it's through the trees and out the other side? Yeah, by the time you're making that choice. Yeah. You know. So, I mean, even Anthony, talks about, you know, you know, see the spot that it crosses on on the tree and just shoot it right there. Yeah, that's a little bit of how we're talking about shooting most things. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. There's that level of trust and belief and letting go. Yes. Yeah.

With connectedness with your eyes and the burden.

Cool. Anything else?

No, man. I think that's it. I gotta go. I gotta fly. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. It's fun having you on we'll have to have you on again. Yeah, good times. Yeah. Cool times.

Thank you. Yep, no

problem. Well catch your flight. Well, hopefully we'll catch your flight on time and I'll add an outro to this

couple of things love to do

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